Central American Cichlids • EBJD........ genetics ???

[JKnPA]

Are they hybrids or variants ? I spent the last few days researching this subject, but I didn't find a conclusive answer. I checked several different sources to get different view points on the question.
1. Has this issue ever been resolved, or is the verdict still out ?
2. What is a 'blue gene J.D. Does it look like a regular J.D. , but carries the gene to produce a possible 'EBJD' ?
Ex: Bb.
3. Does an 'EBJD' carry both 'recessive genes' ...... ex; bb, as opposed to BB, or Bb
John

[montellp]

a blue gene looks like a regular jd but carrys the blue gene i think there colors look more vibrant u cant breed to electric blue jds to get electric blue babys people usually breed blue gene with elctric blues to get the 50 50 electric and blue gene babbys

[Azedenkae]

1.) Electric blue jack dempsey is just a variant of the normal jack dempsey. Think of the electric blue like albinism.
2.) Yes, a blue gene jack dempsey looks exactly like a jack dempsey, just that it carries the electric blue gene. Like albinism. ex. Bb.
3.) Yes, the EBJD carries both recessive genes, ex. bb.

Note that EBJD x EBJD does not produce any viable fry. Any other combination of JD, BGJD and EBJD can.

[JKnPA]

OK...... that agrees with most of the articles I have read.
Do they know why the fry from EBJD x EBJD are not viable ?
Thank you...

[mabirchell]

to many resesive genes

[JKnPA]

to many resesive genes

Even if you mean too many recessive genes , I don't get your point !

[Azedenkae]

Even if you mean too many recessive genes , I don't get your point !

That's the most common explanation given by fish keepers which as you probably realize, does not make the least bit of sense. XD

Honestly people, recessive genes does not auto equal bad. Anyways that's besides the point.

No one has really found out why this is the case, and no one has tested if there's problems relating to female or male EBJDs or whatever. @_@ So yeah, it's a mystery.

[JKnPA]

Even if you mean too many recessive genes , I don't get your point !

That's the most common explanation given by fish keepers which as you probably realize, does not make the least bit of sense. XD

Honestly people, recessive genes does not auto equal bad. Anyways that's besides the point.

No one has really found out why this is the case, and no one has tested if there's problems relating to female or male EBJDs or whatever. @_@ So yeah, it's a mystery.

Az,
Thank you.............
I read at another website that someone had 'free swimminmg' fry that lived for about 10 days. So the fry did hatch and were alive for that period of time.
I wonder if it has something to do with ' Mitochondria DNA, and the processing of food !!!
Any thoughts on that idea ?

[Azedenkae]

Yep, hence my mentioning of fries. Basically the fry stage survives for a while, but they always die off in the end. All of them.

And yeah, there's a lot of possibilities as to why EBJD x EBJD doesn't work. Obviously it has something to do with the EB gene, and most likely has something to do with either or both of the male and female reproductive systems, something that causes problems when producing EBJD fries from EBJDs. I first thought that it could be a pure maternal problem, something to do with her reproductive system not working properly, but it seems that f/m EBJDs still breeds with m SGJDs just fine, so probably not that. Potentially the EB gene is linked to a specific developmental characteristic in both male and females, which when lacking in both will produce weak progeny. Probably.

[JKnPA]

Az,
Very Good................
I told my LFS guy to work on a Solution............... LOL.
Best wishes,
John

[Storiwyr]

My background is in microbiology, a hefty portion of which involves genetics. I can look into this if you're really interested in the genetic explanation on a chromosomal levela and see if it's known. This kind of problem is not unknown (or even uncommon) in captive breeding programs. Examples would be the 'lethal white' gene in horses, the hairless gene in Chinese Crested dogs and double-merle fatalities in Australian Shepherds.

My guess is that it's enzymatic ... meaning, say you need a given enzyme to detoxify something that is found in the food you eat. The fry lack that enzyme, and every time they eat, the toxin builds up a little more until it finally kills them. Parent EBJD would have ONE functional copy of that enzyme gene from THEIR parent BJD/JD, but one nonfunctional one from the EBJD/BJD parent. When you breed an EBJD to an EBJD, they wind up with two nonfunctional copies, can produce no enzyme, and thus die of toxicity.

[JKnPA]

I sent you a PM...............

[s_abhay2001]

I am not very convinced with the explaination of detoxifying enzyme.
If the EBJD progeny is heterzygus WRT this gene, then at least 50% and ideally 75% of their offsprings must survive.
I am also interested in digging out the correct reason for this non-survival.
Has it something to do with the immuity?

[s_abhay2001]

Sorry for the incomplete post.
But I could NOT edit the same, so re-sending the complete one.
Thanks

I am not very convinced with the explanation of detoxifying enzyme.
If the EBJD progeny is hetero-zygote WRT this gene, then at least 50% and ideally 75% of their offspring must survive.
I am also interested in digging out the correct reason for this non-survival.
Has it something to do with the immunity?

If we have some statistical data on % survival of EBJD fry of EBJD X BGJD and EBJD X normal JD cross, it will be easy to dig out the reason(s).
Does anybody have some such data?
I am initiating all the three line breeding experiments.
My first thought/ assumption about EBJD X EBJD cross is that the fry will be physiologically weaker. May not be able to fight diseases and assimilate nutrients in the early days of life.

I have some microbiology and genetics background (PhD in molecular biology), and want to give a serious try to solve this riddle.

[JKnPA]

My first thought/ assumption about EBJD X EBJD cross is that the fry will be physiologically weaker. May not be able to fight diseases and assimilate nutrients in the early days of life.
.............................................................................................................
I think that is the general " concensus of opinion" that I have read elsewhere!
I will have to reread some of the earlier articles I saw to refresh my mind.
Question: How do you get an accurate rate of survival on " newly born fry" ? They are so small and may have large numbers per brood. I don't see how you could possibly get any mathematical data !